what is your money/power ratio in your D

D15, D16, D17 and Mini-Me swaps
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what is your money/power ratio in your D

By ghskid06
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:00 am #215427 Hello all..as some may know i have a d16z6 in my car currently...and to tell the truth it wasnt nearly as big a difference as i thought it would be coming from a b7. I am strongly considering getting a b16 because i do not want to turbo my car...too much trouble/mess for a daily driver (imo).

However i like the idea of keeping a D. But can i reach that 170 hp without too much work and without a turbo?

Im curious to know how much hp you have and how much money you have into your engine (turbo builds included). B series guys can get in on this too if theyd like, just include the swap/purchace price in with your money amount. If you dont know how much hp you make because you havent had it on a dyno, then just guestimate.


I know that a turbo kit sometimes costs less than a bswap. Giving more power than a stock B. But what im trying to say is that for piece of mind purposes i do not want a turbo. Maybe if i get another car. Not to mention that while you get more hp from turboing a d than from a stock b your still pretty much maxed out. With a b i would still have the option to add more power down the road. (just a thought, no one scold me just help me out)

By AutoXCivic
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:08 am #215433 Simple answer ... NO. On a D series motor 170 is either going to involve a significant investment or a turbo.


Wait are we talking WHP or at the crank.

Either way, you are either going to be dropping some serious coin for N/A or going the turbo route.

You can DD a 300+ whp D if you want. If you are wanting a nice quick d-series setup you can boost it for not that much. For me parts + labor was about $3500 ... the reliability is in the tune. As I've said before you can make a stock motor take a shit if you fuck up the tune.

I'm not boosting too much right now, just because I'm using the weak USDM d15 bottom end, but I'm still making 181whp/154wtq ... which will stomp any b16 swap out there. Once I have the bottom end built it will be sitting at about 250whp and it will be a DD.

D-series motors have a lot more potential then people give them credit for.
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By ghskid06
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:43 pm #215466 Thank you for your response.

im not saying that they dont have potential. I did some research before posting. but a 3500 dollar turbo setup is more than double a full b16 swap. With the extra money i could do alot. But yes i do realize that you can get a turbo set up cheaper. I live in the middle of nowhere, im not sure there are any close tuners. This is partially based one that fact that i only see about one aftermarket turbod car a year on the roads around here. I also do not like the idea of someone else, professional or not, doing things to my car that i do not understand. Ive always done my own work, and based upon the amount of trouble people seem to have with their setups (perhaps without a good tune) i feel i would have the same luck.

By AutoXCivic
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:11 pm #215469 That's fair. I don't do most of my own work, because it is my only vehicle and I want to make sure it is done right.

Let me preface my next statement by saying I'm not trying to talk you out of a b swap I'm just giving you the information that I have, and letting you know what is out there.


I was quoting my turbo in terms of parts and labor, and I believe (again in term of parts and labor) that a b swap is more expensive (of course this depends on where you get your engine). That being said if you were going to do your own work for the turbo car (for my build at least) you could knock off ~$2000. There are many guides and free software that will allow you to tune your car yourself if you were to chose this route, and there is a wealth of information out there if you wanted to learn more about turbos and how they function and what happens inside an engine when it is turboed.

Just sayin'. Ok I'm done with my turbo D peice, I know you don't want to go that route, but I just thought I'd give you some more information.

On to the meat of your dilemma, so to speak. What are your goals for the car? And are you dead set on going b-series? Personally if I was going to do a b swap I would ignore the b16 completely, but I like my torque ... a lot. Since you've already got the car wired for VTEC I would consider getting a b18c1 or going with either an ls/vtec or B20/VTEC swap. You could probably put together a b20/vtec for cheaper (or close to the same cost) than picking up a b16 w/tranny, and it will give you way more torque, and a less peaky powerband.

By The Hatchlin
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:29 pm #215474 75 shot of nitrous and you will hit your number with ease, and a zex used kit run around 200-300 dollars
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By teal_dx
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:27 pm #215481 Where in OH do you live? I'm in NE OH and could maybe help you find a tuner.

I still have not finished tuning my turbo D, keep on running into issues (ignition, overheating, now a leaking wastegate...) so I'm not sure what my ratio will be. I really hate adding up how much i have spent on the setup after you think about all the small things like AN fittings.

By AutoXCivic
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:31 pm #215482
teal_dx wrote:Where in OH do you live? I'm in NE OH and could maybe help you find a tuner.

I still have not finished tuning my turbo D, keep on running into issues (ignition, overheating, now a leaking wastegate...) so I'm not sure what my ratio will be. I really hate adding up how much i have spent on the setup after you think about all the small things like AN fittings.


Agreed ... once you start adding up what you've spent on a build, you realize you can never sell the car.
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By -paul
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:45 pm #215487 Yeah it's horrible! I've spent ££££'s on mine, restoring it, rebuilt OEM D16z6, interior, exterior etc... Conclusion: Never going to sell. I've made it my own, sooner anyone accepts that, the better. It won't matter how much has been spent/or going to be spent.

I'm in a similar situation too, I've come across a problem with my newly built d16 after just over 6k miles done. D16z6 stock is fun, maybe with an adjustable fuel regulator can perhaps get a bit more power out of it with a tune. My original plan was to turbo the D, but like you, it's my DD and I don't want any costly issues, especially how much it'll cost to go boost in the first place lol.

So I'm 99% sure I want to stay NA, question is, stay with the fun D. Go B18, or K20 swap.

Advantage of B or K swap
More power

Disavantages of swapping to a B or K
Far more expensive to purchase, also if either one of them were to go BANG, more costly to repair where as D series is far more cheaper.

Mine is a DD but I want to track too. Hard decisions really. Maybe keep the D as it's such a fun engine to drive, and get the most from it. Save in the mean time and see what the future holds.

Wow, my reply has helped me greatly to make my own decision lol.
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By ghskid06
- Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:53 pm #215491 thank you guys for the replies.

AutoXcivic- thank you for being a reasonable person. I am so not dead set on going B series. I am the kind of person that likes to do the unexpected. Doing so would mean keeping the z6 and making power from it. I do agree with you about all the power being high end, that is sooo annoying already, lol. I have considered going bigger, i dont like having to rev the crap out of my car when im just criusing around. I also do not like having to downshift if im cruising in 4th or 5th so i can actually speed up at a noticable rate. Im not familiar with torque numbers on the b series motors, the B18c really has that much more torque? B20 is starting to go a little big for me, only way i think id go bigger than a 1.8 in my honda is if i was going all the way to h22. And yeah to answer your original question, i was refering to 170 at the flywheel, like the b16s.

Hathlin- nos is not really my thing, i plan on using more than stock hp more than once a week.

teal-im SW by dayton. Yes ive read up on most of your posts. Im sorry your having all the troubles. The kinds of things id like to avoid. My idea of reliability is changing the oil every three thousand miles and not having more than say one issue a year. Of course that doesnt include reg maintenance. Nice to hear from you btw. Once things start to warm up next year is when im planning on swapping..or whatever i do.

iChrist- i can see myself spending a lot of money on this car. there is only a couple things id trade it for down the road, one being a 300zx and the other an 8th gen hatch. I had a 300zx for a while, non turbo...miss it. My problem is that im a full time student, i dont have the money to repair major problems once invested. Just started my third year, so still going to be a while before its not a problem anymore.




Turbo could be something to consider. I know nothing about programing except for the little ive learned in my engineering classes. As far as a turbo set up goes, i could easily install everything myself. I wouldnt have to spend any money on labor except for tuning, which i have no idea the cost of.

I dont want to buy an ebay setup...The only option for me then is to piece used stuff together over the winter. That was the plan even with a b swap (rebuild it over winter). But turbo parts are very rare around here and the word turbo is always accompanied with "shaft play, $300." Im not a turbo guru, but that seems a little steep for a .60 .72 turbo with shaft play. If im wrong, let me know and give me a good prce to look out for with one that doesnt have any shaft play.

By AutoXCivic
- Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:30 am #215536 You could go with one of my ideas I wanted to do to my car. F22A1 ... 2.2L single cam non-vtec ... now that's unexpected. Then go F2B so you aren't stuck with a garbage transmission, now that would be a fun street car.


For ease I would go with the b-series swap, since you are not wanting to go turbo.

And the b18c1 doesn't have whole lot more torque but it's has a longer stroke and so it's easier to coax more torque out of it than a b16 ... you can also get more torque out of a d16 than a b16 for the same reason.

The b16 isn't called the torqueless wonder for nothing.


B16 (USDM from del sol VTEC)-
Horsepower 160 @ 7600 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 111 @ 7000 RPM

b18c1 (USDM GSR)-
Horsepower 170 @ 7600
Torque (ft/lbs) 128 @ 6200

Also for the record the b20 is the same block and crank as the b18c1, just a bigger bore, so it's not a physically larger motor.


Look at how much quicker you reach max torque with b18c1, the engine reaches full acceleration potential 800 RPM sooner, and has 17 more tq at the crank. Because this is an N/A power band you will fell that quite a bit I guarantee it will be noticeable. It will be much nicer for cruising and a lot more fun in general.
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By OleFolk
- Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:19 pm #215573
AutoXCivic wrote:
teal_dx wrote:Where in OH do you live? I'm in NE OH and could maybe help you find a tuner.

I still have not finished tuning my turbo D, keep on running into issues (ignition, overheating, now a leaking wastegate...) so I'm not sure what my ratio will be. I really hate adding up how much i have spent on the setup after you think about all the small things like AN fittings.


Agreed ... once you start adding up what you've spent on a build, you realize you can never sell the car.


Too true I will never make my money back. I bought the car for $700 but its worth like $2880. And it looks pretty stock :roll: . With no suspension work. :oops:

By hondahero89
- Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:52 am #217423 i understand exactly how u feel. u want d series security but b/k/h power. i settled into the idea of keepin my z6 and slowly savin for a b20 with gsr. its fun but not as expensive as the dohc vtec motors. and its not as hard to maintain urself. hope this helps u.
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By chrono404
- Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:24 am #217428
AutoXCivic wrote:Also for the record the b20 is the same block and crank as the b18b1, just a bigger bore, so it's not a physically larger motor.


fixed that for you. A b20 is basically a Different Sleeved 84mm Bore B18b LS Engine(which is 81mm)

The JDM B20's apprently have better heads with better flowing valves. The Awesome thing about these engines is all the torque you have. From 2k you have over100lbs of torque and it peaks at 131lbs. With the Right transmissions you will easily slay any b16.

My 99Spec JDM B20 with I/H/E and a USDM b16 EM1 Transmission is faster then any b16 I've Ran,a low boost Turbo LSVtec Da(ls transmission),a GSR Swapped EG Si Hatch(with I/H/E, ITR Cams and basemap) and H22A CB7 Accord.

anytime you push the gas peddle down you are pushed back into your seat its awesome. The lowest my fuel economy has been is 21mpg(town) and highest is 29(town) Which considering I'm Running 87 Octane fuel isn't bad at all. If you roll a b16, b18c GSR or H22a then you HAVE to run 91 Octane fuel.
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By ikon
- Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:28 am #217430
The Hatchlin wrote:75 shot of nitrous and you will hit your number with ease, and a zex used kit run around 200-300 dollars


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